Listen to “Interview with Porn Free Radio’s Matt Dobschuetz” on Spreaker.

Read an Edited Transcript of the Show:

Craig:
Welcome to Sex Afflictions and Porn Addictions. I am your host, Craig Perra. Thank you so much for giving your most precious resource to me, your time and we’re going to make this talk really valuable. I have with me a legend in the porn addiction space, a great man, a great healer, someone that I have a lot of respect for, as those of you who listen to me know I am very selective in who I bring on. It’s not just arrogance, it’s just that there are so many people in this space who don’t get it, who are too busy focused on treating the symptoms. And the great Matt Dobschuetz is not one of those people. I’ve heard so many wonderful things from people that he’s worked with and just know him as a person. Matt, welcome to the show.

Matt:
Well, thanks for that introduction and of course, you’re a living legend yourself. I mean, let’s congratulate one another here.

Craig:
Let’s do it.

Matt:
And I will say this to your audience, I started this podcast in 2014, my podcast, Porn Free Radio. You were one of the first guests. I think you were the second guest to come on. Episode 16, I think. You were incredibly generous then. It was a hobby for me then. I hadn’t even turned anything into a business or built a product or started coaching guys, it was completely a hobby. But you immediately encouraged me, treated me like a peer and collaborated for years. And This is… Probably, we’re going to do our sixth or seventh podcast together today, I mean and people love those episodes. I hear all the time, “That one guy.” And I always say, “Craig Perra?” And they’re like, “That’s the guy.” Everyone remembers those episodes.

Craig:
Well, same with yours too, Matt. And so, Matt just wrote a book called Porn Free: Becoming the Type of Man Who Does Not Look at Porn and such a great resource. I’m going to read here in Chapter 19. And by the way, ladies and gentlemen, I am quoted in this book. I’m so happy. It is the first time I’ve been quoted in print so that feels awesome-

Matt:
Quoted and I cited the quote, too.

Craig:
… Quoted and cited.

Matt:
Yes.

Craig:
I love it. A quote with attribution, so honored man. This perspective on page 19, “Porn is not the problem for us. It is the solution.” I’m going to read that again and I want you to explain it, but I want to say it again. And I’m going to dramatically pause at the right spot. “Porn is not the problem for us, it’s the solution.” Tell me what you mean by that.

Matt:
Well, this is what I mean by it. The key word in that sentence is us, for us. Who am I talking about? Who’s the us? When I wrote this book, when I host my podcast, when I listen to your podcast, I hear a lot of we. You and I know what it’s like to be compulsively using porn. You and I know what it’s like to go down the rabbit hole, to get lost in obsessive thinking and to essentially, everything in your brain is going towards porn 24/7, crowding out all the meaningful areas of your life, taking over. We know what it’s like on the inside, but we’re using porn for a reason. We’re using it to escape, to numb, to hide. We’re using it to get excitement. We’re using it to meet primary needs. Unfortunately, a lot of people in our space, well-meaning professionals talk a lot about porn as a problem. Meaning, they pathologize it, they-

Craig:
Right? They demonize it.

Matt:
… Yes, pastors demonize it. I hate to say this, but even in some of the partner communities, the sex addict is treated with this sort of disdain like, “He’s traumatizing everyone in his life.” And I get that. I get some of the [inaudible 00:04:52] of porn and I get some of the challenges of porn. And yet, when you’re in the inside using it, you’re using it for a reason. It’s a solution. The problem is if you just treat it like a problem, you don’t ever deal with the real problems that are driving the behavior. If that’s your main focus, right? Porn is the problem, you don’t end up getting to the deeper problems. You don’t end up getting to the things that are actually driving the behavior, and if you’re on the inside, you know that.

Craig:
There’s a reason why I wanted to have Matt on my show. There’s a reason why I wanted to promote him, because this is where we are in perfect alignment. This is an exercise that he does with clients. The exercise that we do is called the positive attributes. We work with a lot of Christian brothers, and Muslims brothers and Jewish brothers. They come to us and they’ve demonized this part of themselves. They have… That porn is the Bogeyman and the notion of trying… There’s some cases Matt, and this is a way that sometimes I weed out somebody who might not be a fit for my program, because we know how important it is to work with people who are in alignment. Not that we’re not going to challenge them, but they are certain that alliance is so important. What are the positive… How might this be serving you?

Craig:
And when there’s a like, “No, it’s all bad. How dare you?” It’s not a fit, and that person’s got some more room to grow. It’s so important. Don’t you agree for people to understand the needs that this behavior is serving so they can meet those needs proactively?

Matt:
Yeah because here’s the danger. When you make porn the sole problem… If I say, “Hey, you’re using porn because of needs.” You’re like, “Well, porn is the problem. So I guess I should not have needs.”

Craig:
Yes.

Matt:
I keep moving and we make needs our enemy.

Craig:
Like, “Hey, I’m in the battle. I got to fight against this. If I don’t want porn in my life, it means I just can’t have these needs. I need to kind of push them down or I need to ignore them or pray more or whatever.” What I’m saying is, “Hey, porn obviously is not helping you in your life. It’s taking away.” I do think there are [inaudible 00:07:49] to using porn and having a relationship with it. But if you want to treat it at the exclusion of dealing with your needs and the real things that are underlying, you’re going to keep being stuck in that cycle of shame and stuck in that cycle of never really getting ahead, because you’re never really dealing with the real issues.

Craig:
Yeah, and particularly a problem for men of faith.

Matt:
I think guys get trapped in this habit of trying to meet their needs in this very exclusive way. And when it’s not in alignment with your faith, it definitely adds to the shame and adds to sort of the secrecy and hiding. But likewise, you and I work with a lot of guys who maybe are spiritual, but they’re not part of a religion. Or maybe even guys who would consider themselves agnostic or atheist, and guess what? They don’t like being controlled by porn. They don’t like it feeling like their life is unmanageable. They want tools. They want to be good guys in a healthy way. They don’t want to be misogynistic. I mean, there’s all these things that porn maybe elicits or brings out in people, that even people who are freethinkers and maybe not tied in with a religion are still like, “I don’t want this thing.” So how do they get help? How do they go-

Craig:
So true.

Matt:
… I once had an agnostic guy say, “Hey man, I’m going to work with you.” He goes, “But…” I think he heard a podcast where he said, “Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t mean I don’t have a moral problem with some of the things in pornography.” And I thought, “Yeah, of course.” Of course, an atheist might have a set of ethics and care about people. I felt like an idiot, but he was… He could hear my heart in the work. So he wasn’t thinking I was… But it was more my own ignorance.

Craig:
And on the flip side for my Christian brothers, I want them to understand why it’s a sin. I know, God said so. And understanding that why helps them understand one, the needs that the behavior is meeting. So ultimately they can meet those needs in a healthy, constructive way. They can make an informed, educated choice that this product, this medium isn’t making me a better lover, isn’t connecting me with my partner. I’m not learning moves that I wouldn’t otherwise have done. In fact, it’s moving me away. And if you stop it, it’s a sin. I like helping people understand why, so they can make that informed, educated choice.

Matt:
Sure, yeah.

Craig:
Let me… I want to… Chapter three, you start… You rarely use the word addiction in your book and that’s something else that we have in common. Tell me why do you rarely use that word?

Matt:
Well, I mean, I really think that this whole thing is about habits. Just like you, I mean, you’re the founder of The Mindful Habits, so no one gets this more than you. And Dr. Thomas Hoban, who I quote in this book says, “Addictions can be seen as an extreme version of a habit.” Now there’s [inaudible 00:11:46] and there’s craving. And some other things that go into an addiction, but at the end of the day, it’s a very ingrained habit. And yet our culture continues to use the word addict and addiction, not as a habit, but as sort of this life defining disease or this life defining affliction, or never… Finite label. And so again, when you’re on the inside using porn as a solution, all that makes you feel is crappy. You just feel bad about yourself. Oh grail, now I’m out of control and I’ve done it. I’ve rewired my brain. And now-

Craig:
I have a disease.

Matt:
… I’m an addict. And now I’m going to be seeing my sex addiction therapist for the rest of my life because it’s untreatable or it’s uncurable. And my wife is the beloved partner who has to deal with her afflicted husband. And I know you used the word sex afflictions addiction, but I feel like for you get that on the inside there are challenges with this, there are things we need to grow in. But it’s not life defining. In some ways it’s taken… It’s been used and pathologized in a way that I just don’t think is helpful.

Craig:
That’s it and what it does long term… And someone asked me to calculate recently how… I’ll just tell you what it is. I calculated the sobriety is only 20% of the solution. That was my looking at the scale, weighing the pros and cons to not doing something. And when you… And so that means there’s 80% and you could go back and forth a few percentages, but you get my point, right? There’s other things that need to be done on the make a habit, part of the equation. Like a new identity, where you prioritize sexual health, where you are a man of integrity. Staying in that place high, and this is not to take anything away from the amazing work that’s happening in those meetings. And there is harm in the long term identification with being a porn addict. It’s bad for you. It’s bad for the partners, this identification of being, “I’m the wife of a porn addict.” If you stay there, chances are your life is going to be pretty sucky-

Matt:
Yeah, the longer you go in recovery, the less definition even applies [inaudible 00:14:54]. I have not looked at porn in over 11 years now. Am I a porn addict? From a behavioral definition, I am not. But many people will still identify as a porn addict. Now, do I still like porn? Sure. I still love the taste… I still love Dr. Pepper, but I don’t drink it anymore. Because it’s not good for my health. But the taste of Dr. Pepper didn’t become bad to me all of a sudden. But I don’t go around going well, “I’m a Dr. Pepper addict.” I just think that the label sucks for a long term thing. It doesn’t help recovery and it doesn’t really apply in many different situations. So that’s why I use addiction lightly because I want it to be focused on habits. And likewise, I like to redefine recovery as a transformation of our habit-

Craig:
Yes, I-

Matt:
… Right? We’re going from an exclusive way of meeting our needs in this very exclusive addiction, this very exclusive behavior, to now we’re going to transform to getting our needs met in healthy ways. And it’s going to be a variety of different things. There’s lots of solutions, not just one path. Addiction’s very one faced. How many times have you talked to a guy who said, “Well, I just was really stressed out at work. So of course I had to come home and look at porn.” I’m like, “That’s the only option you had?”

Craig:
The only one.

Matt:
That right now that is sort of addict thinking, right? One-

Craig:
Yes, it is.

Matt:
… One solution. Whereas in recovery we have lots of different paths. Like, “How am I going to solve this problem?”

Craig:
How am I going to numb, cope and escape in a healthy way. I was on a bit of a tangent in one of my calls about two weeks ago. “And I’m really struggling with recovery.” And I’m like, “Of course you’re struggling with recovery because in your mind recovery sucks. In your mind recovery is not doing the one behavior that’s been yours since you were a child to help you emotionally and physically regulate. And now, because your wife’s mad at you have to stop doing that thing that you’ve been doing. And heck, it’s the only joy that you’ve experienced in the past three months. Because you’ve been grinding away at work and not taking care of yourself and not doing the things that you need to be successful for you to…” Recovery sucks and it is so important to define it exactly as you do. I love the way that you define it, Matt.

Matt:
Well, I hate it when guys say, “Recovery work.” Recovery work. Oh I got to go to work. We’ve got to… I hate that. Because it’s like, “Well how much… Get more creative. Why isn’t it more life giving for you?”

Craig:
That’s right.

Matt:
People loved this episode I created a couple years ago where I, where I quoted you again, I might even… I don’t know if it made it in. Yeah this made it in the book too. You said, “Success is 50% recovery work and 50% kicking ass in life.” And I’m asking guys all the time. Well what about that? Let’s okay. “You don’t like some of these things you have to do and things you set up. Well, what about the other 50%? How are you kicking ass?” And usually when they’re fatigued with the recovery work, it’s because they’re not kicking ass in anything.

Craig:
That’s right. I have a YouTube video, Matt and I have prided myself on being ethical and being honest, I had a 30 day phase where I had them pop up and we quickly deleted that, but I have a click big video on YouTube. It is total click bait and it is the cure for sex and porn addiction. And I go in and do my dance and the cure. Here Is the aggressive pursuit of a great life. The reason I haven’t changed it because it’s my truth. And the more I do this and the more I see men on the other side of this, not using sex to emotionally and physically regulate, they are aggressively pursuing a great life.

Matt:
You know what the best coaching call is for me is? And I’m sure this is for you too. When a guy gets to the end of the call and he goes, “Matt…” Or to you he goes, “Craig, I realized today, we talked about all these things that I’m working on. And some of the successes I had, we didn’t talk about porn once.” I love those calls. Because I’m like, “Yeah, the more we do this, the more we really get engaged, then that’s the natural outcome.”

Craig:
That’s right. Because that means you’re focusing on the make a habit part of the equation, that means you’re focusing on the healthy sexuality part of the equation, that means you are focusing on feeding the right Wolf part of the equation. And you cover this beautifully starting on page, chapter 39. I got… The book you can see all marked up. I want to hear more about this statement. “Wholeness is the goal of our recovery.” And we’ve talked a little bit about that narrow definition of recovery, but tell me a little bit more about really how important that is to you and to your clients.”

Matt:
Well, I think in my own story, what I really realized is I was living this divided life. I had this needy part of me that was hidden and isolated and alone and porn tried to meet that guy and help that guy. And then I had the guy I showed people. And I was kind of a gregarious character like yourself. And so I was the funny guy. I was the… I was creative. I did all these things to make people like me. But on the inside I was hurting, I was wounded, I was… And I couldn’t ask for help and I was isolated. And so for me, the real profound thing that happened in recovery was the integration of the hidden parts of me. Both the parts of me that came alive in the addiction, but also the real needs and the wounds that were driving it.

Matt:
And people started seeing the real me, the whole me. Not just the funny guy, not just the guy who jokes and doesn’t take anything seriously. I became a real person. And to the point where, when I did relapse and I relapsed a few times through years, I would… Actually one of the things that would drive me back into the healthy behaviors and getting current with people was that feeling that I was pulling apart again. That I was going back into that isolated two lives kind of pursuit. And I couldn’t stand that feeling, it felt like my world was pulling apart. And so even now, when I have a small behavior that’s kind of hiding or kind of a little unskillful, I’m quick to go to my wife or some of the other guys in my life and say, “Hey, here’s something I did, that was unskillful, its kind of going back into divided now-“

Craig:
The wrong track, right?

Matt:
“… Wrong track. I need to check this in. Not out of piety, I’m not checking it in because of scrupulosity. I’m checking it in because I want to stay integrated. And this is how I stay integrated. I’m going to tell you what, I just did my little secret thing. And then that is going to bring freedom and Liberty to me, and I’m going to stay whole.”

Craig:
And one of the advantages that I think that we have, and we want to coach our men and the partners that we work to get to this place is, so six months, nine months ago, I download TikTok. I am completely… I see the danger right away. And all of a sudden my For You page, man it is thirst trap after thirst trap. And I finally was like, “Wait a minute, this is tell Michelle time.” Not because I’m a boy, not because I did anything wrong. I felt that I was move… One, I was blown away. I was in complete shock that this existed and how quickly there was one video that I saw that said, “Hey, 50 year old dad, how you doing? Blah, blah, blah.” And I’m like, “Oh my God, she’s talking to me. She knows the algorithm.”

Craig:
That’s when I put the breaks on, I shared it that night on my group call, I shared it that night with my wife and I am blessed because I have safety to be able to say that to my wife and many of our clients do not. And that’s really hard, isn’t it?

Matt:
Yeah well, they’re a lot of times rebuilding trust after a lot of problems. And I don’t minimize the trauma and some of the stuff that us pursuing addiction causes. But yeah, that is one of the benefits of growing in recovery, building strong alliances, both with the guys in your life and your wife. Yeah, being able to get safe by being honest about something. I had something similar happen when we watched The Winter Olympics, I was watching something my wife wanted to watch, an event she wanted to watch all of a sudden I got drawn focused in on one of the athletes. And a couple days later it kind of came up in my head. I engaged that craving- yeah. One of the quotes-

Craig:
Let me do a search.

Matt:
… No, I didn’t do a search. One of the quotes I have on here is that craving isn’t something that happens, it’s something you actively do. And I went back onto my DVR rewind this event, and I started watching it again. Now, rewinding anything is a real red zone behavior for me. Because the old-

Craig:
Danger.

Matt:
… Danger right. And I felt a small level of shame here. “Oh, I just rewind something here it is. Porn free radio guy. Craig Perra’s best friend is doing one of these little things. And then I just sat my wife down. I said, “Listen, I did something really dumb today. I engaged this obsessive thought. I went back, I rewind something. I watched this. Here’s what I saw. And here’s my plan going forward.” And one of the things I said to her was this particular event. I’m just not going to watch with you in the future. It’s not that I couldn’t watch 95% of it without having any problems. But this one thing I saw just was kind of a trigger and I want to stay safe. That’s my goal. When I stay safe, my brain is quiet.

Craig:
Happy.

Matt:
Happy, it finds other things that are meaningful to me to focus on. So why would I keep putting myself in front of things like TikTok or other things where I’m scrolling that are potentially stirring up that obsessive thinking? I like safety better than I like whatever that little freedom is to watch that thing.

Craig:
Yeah me too, Matt. So we’re so blessed that we’re able to share it in. We have careers where I shared that with the guys, a quarter of them were struggling with TikTok. Two thirds of them or a third of them were nibbling around the edges and it’s so not black and white. It’s so important to… And again, it comes from prioritizing sexual health, prioritizing what’s important to you. That part of me is sacred. And whenever it’s touched, whenever it’s awaken, whenever it tingles, that’s an alarm to me to say, “Hold on, you’re cool with this? Is this where you want it to go?” And if the answer is, “No, put on the brakes, do something about it. Because I want to feel safe.” I love that analogy.

Craig:
All right so listen, we are going to do this again, but tell me where do guys find you, Matt? Where can they find the book? How can they find you out in the web? There’s plenty of room for us to help people. I see us not in competition, but in cooperation and yeah. Tell my audience where they can find you and how do they get this awesome book, which goes… And listen, we only covered three concept. There were 30, and I’m going to have Matt back and we’re going to talk about the other 25 concepts as our awareness continues to grow. But how can they get in touch with you? How can they find you? What do they need to do?

Matt:
Well, I’ll tell you can get the book anywhere it’s sold online. So anywhere books are sold online. So-

Craig:
Amazon.

Matt:
… The goodness of it. It is at Amazon and that’s where a lot of people sell. But depending on what country you’re listening to, it could be available at your local online retailer. So this book has already sold in New Zealand, Australia, Japan, India, Norway, Sweden, Germany. I’ve seen people buy it in all those countries and they haven’t all bought it from Amazon. So it is available on Amazon, in the States, obviously in the UK and it’s available in Kendall format, paperback, even a hard cover version where you can take off the cover. It’s what I call the airplane version, where you don’t have to have a big Porn Free. And my face on it, you can take that off this-

Craig:
You got to say handsome guy.

Matt:
… The flight attendant doesn’t have to see what you’re reading. And then the other cool thing is, since I know this is a podcast and I do a podcast, I recorded the audio book version and it’s on Audible. And it’s now on Apple iTunes also. So if you have an Apple device, you can buy it that way and… Yeah, and so that’s cool. A lot of people are buying that, because I think obviously people are used to hearing me talk. I will tell you a mistake I made, when you record your book down the road, one day. I went to a basketball game the night before and screamed like crazy. And then the next day I’m in a studio with a $2,000 microphone in front of me and I am trying to get my voice to be normal. And so I barely get through it, but it came out okay. But it was fine because I was like-

Craig:
Oh my God.

Matt:
“Is this self sabotaged? Why was I screaming at that basketball game the night before?”

Craig:
Awesome and what is your website and how do people find… Tell us about the podcast, Porn Free Radio. If they want to find you on the web, where do they go for that?

Matt:
Yeah well, you’re listening to this podcast right now somewhere and chances are Porn Free Radio is in the same platform. So search Matt Dobschuetz it’s a Porn Free Radio. You can subscribe in your podcast player. And then my website is recoveredman.com. It used to be Porn Free something. And it was really hard for people to get to through their filters. So recoveredman.com is the website. And it has some stuff about what I do and my coaching and stuff like that. But yeah, pick up the book though, the book is… It was really cool to see it come out.

Matt:
I finished it 2020 during the COVID year. And I kind of said, “If I don’t finish this now, when am I ever going to finish this?” So I hammered it out and I’m so happy that it’s out. And it’s finding people. There’s people who have never listened to the podcast who are now contacting me because they read the book and it’s super cool to reach another group of people who maybe wouldn’t be watching you on YouTube or listening to our podcasts. It’s cool to reach those guys.

Craig:
Well, and I got an autograph copy. And I love it, great book. Those of you who’ve been listening to me, you know I try to be very selective on resources. I absolutely think the world of Matt brother from another mother, it’s such a privilege having you on my show, Matt, I look forward to you joining Sex Afflictions and Porn Addictions again, and I salute you for all the great work that you do, helping people keep up to great work, keep feeding the right Wolf and I look forward to seeing you soon.

Matt:
Awesome, thanks Craig.

Craig:
You’re welcome. Bye everybody, remember to embrace your power of choice and feed the right Wolf inside you. Thank you so much for listening, make it great. Bye everybody.