Read an Edited Transcript of the Show:

Craig Perra:
Welcome to Sex Afflictions and Porn Addictions. I am your host, Craig Perra, from www.themindfulhabit.com. I’m the founder of the Mindful Habit system, the world’s number one at-home, online addiction program for men struggling with sex and porn addiction. This broadcast is to empower you to create healthy sexuality and a great life. Speaking of health sexuality, today, we are going to be talking about mindful sexuality. I have a very special guest to help me to do that. He is my resident expert. Our resident expert. A psychologist. Graduate of the University of Adam Mickiewicz in Poznan. A recovery coach. Getting certified as a psychosexologist. Certified in the Mindful Habit system. He is my brother, my best friend. Was a former client. [Adrian Stobrin 00:01:33]. Welcome, brother.

Adrian:
Thank you for having me. Hi, Craig.

Craig Perra:
So nice to see you as always. So, mindful masturbation. Let’s talk about that. First, yeah, let’s start with mindful masturbation. Is that possible? Is it something that people can do? When I say mindful masturbation, Adrian, what comes up for you?

Adrian:
I remember when first time we talked about this concept… You brought it up on one of the coaching calls when I was still working with you on my recovery. I remember the first thing that came up was fear. That I was afraid of even touching that area. I was afraid that if I will connect with myself sexually again, I will go berserk, isolate, go out of control, become compulsive, go crazy. I was really, really afraid of that concept and, over time, it became something that I started to appreciate a little bit for me. So, for me-

Craig Perra:
Stop right there. Let’s stay with that fear for a little bit because I think a lot of people… Listen, I know and you know, a lot of people listening, they come to us from a place of abstinence. They’ve stopped doing anything. They stopped masturbating. They got the blinders on when they’re walking around outside. It’s not, not, not do something, not do something, not do something. So, when I introduced this concept about mindful masturbation, you were afraid. Now, what were you afraid of?

Adrian:
I was thinking that I will… First of all, it felt like betraying my sobriety in some way. I felt like I had such a good streak without masturbation. I was counting days. It was over two years when we talked about this. So, it was a long time without masturbating and I felt it will be some kind of betrayal of my sobriety ideals. Like a step backwards in a sense. And it felt like, if I do that, then what’s stopping me from watching porn? What’s stopping me from masturbating daily? What’s stopping me from choosing masturbation instead of having sex with a partner or connecting with somebody?

Craig Perra:
So, essentially, you throw out the baby with the bath water. In other words, I can’t do this because, if I do this, that means that the floodgates are going to open and all the bad things are going to happen again. Fair?

Adrian:
Exactly. At the same time, I didn’t have a partner back then, which was a new territory for me. I was separated. I broke up with my partner during that time. I was single and I didn’t know what to do with that sexual energy. After a couple of months especially, you start to go a bit nuts. When you don’t express yourself sexually in any possible way. And you are not ready for a relationship. I wasn’t ready after a breakup to just jump right into something. Emotionally, I wasn’t ready. So, I knew that it was not a good option for me either to start dating right away.

Craig Perra:
It’s a tricky subject because… I’m always thinking about what’s someone thinking of who’s listening. We know there are some guys who are in this, whether it be for religious reasons or whether that they be deeply entrenched in 12 steps philosophy around not doing anything. There’s also a reality that I think it’s worth noting right now. Whenever I work with someone who wishes to not masturbate for religious reasons, let’s say, Adrian, I tell them that… Good news. The only way you’re going to be successful is if you go guru. Go guru. The reason why I say that is because the bar… There’s a reason why the American Psychiatric Association says masturbation can be healthy. There’s a reason why the American Pediatric Association and other professional medical or psychological organizations… Their position has evolved around masturbation. It was, I think, a mental health illness back in the ’30s. It’s why Kellogg’s Cereal was invented. Because it was plain and yucky and just eat that and that would make the masturbation go away. Some creative marketing, if you ask me.

Craig Perra:
And so there’s a lot of fear. There’s a lot of fear of people masturbating. I think this is one of the places where there is a split between the strict, rigid sex addiction proponents and then, on the other side, the sex positive. It’s that community where it’s go for it. But what I learned is not all masturbation is not healthy. So, this is where this concept of mindful masturbation can be really important. Okay, so I introduced the concept to you. There was initial reluctance to it. Then, what happened?

Adrian:
After some weeks of thinking about it, I decided I’m going to give it a shot without any erotica, any pornography, just me, myself, and my body. I remember that I was very careful with it. Like, I’ve chosen a day when I felt really good about myself. My fundamental five was impeccable. I was taking care of my diet, my exercise, my mindfulness. I felt really good and fulfilled during that day. But I was also feeling quite sexual during that day. I’ve chosen that this is going to be the day when I try it. And I remember first time I tried, afterwards I felt somewhat upset. I felt like I let down myself. Judgment popped up. Like, moral judgment.

Craig Perra:
You had a good streak going, too. I mean, you had some days under your belt. That felt good, I bet.

Adrian:
Right, right. Like, two and a half years. That was amazing. Right away, I felt this sense of guilt that came up to me. Sense of judgment. That it wasn’t as fulfilling as I thought. Some anxiety. Maybe now I’m not healthy. Maybe I’m not recovering anymore. So, this first time wasn’t the best. Because of, I think, my perception of what happened. It wasn’t an unhealthy act. I was in touch with my feelings, with my body. I wasn’t running away from anything during that day. But still, I felt that somehow… I judge it. The next time, though… the second time was really great. I tried it again and I didn’t have that fear about it anymore because it happened already. So, it wasn’t like this new thing that I’m introducing.

Adrian:
The second time was really good. I felt fulfilled. I felt happy. I felt that warmth inside of myself. And I didn’t feel like I wanted to do more. What happened each time when I was struggling with porn addiction or compulsive masturbation was, after each session, I wanted more. It was never fulfilling. I never felt fuller afterwards. I always felt empty. This time, it wasn’t like that. It was the first time in my life, actually, when I experienced masturbation that doesn’t leave me with that sense of emptiness inside. So, that was really an interesting experience.

Craig Perra:
So, it took a few times for you to appreciate its benefits. Is that fair?

Adrian:
Right, yeah.

Craig Perra:
When you think about the reprogramming that you’re doing… Just about 99.9% of every guy that comes to us is stuck in this shame cycle of PMO. Porn, masturbation, orgasm. So, everything is lumped into this shame cycle. It’s all bad. What you’re saying is, hey, it’s not all bad. You can separate the porn from the masturbation. There’s all sorts of reasons why someone may choose to masturbate mindfully. Now, what does it mean to masturbate mindfully?

Adrian:
That’s a very important question. That’s not something that we, as guys, do usually. That’s what I can say in the beginning.

Craig Perra:
Yeah, it’s not what we normally do.

Adrian:
You’re not trying to abuse your body, but you’re touching yourself with gentleness. You try to touch yourself with love. You don’t rush through it. Eyes opened. No fantasies. Just being in connection with yourself and appreciating yourself in that sense. I think that’s probably what women do more often. They have that, I think, healthier perspective on touch and also touching yourself. That it can be a celebration of your body. It doesn’t have to be an isolating act or a shameful act or some kind of expression of anger or frustration. For us guys, most often it is some way to get rid of the tension from our mind or body. So, it’s very different, I think. It’s calmer. It’s slower. It’s intentional. You don’t go to fantasy world. You try to be present with your body. Also, in order to appreciate that, I can tell that you have to have some sobriety under your belt. I wouldn’t be able to stay calm with my sexuality, to be okay with that sexual energy, and to not go berserk when I was just starting. I needed a lot of time to get to that place where I can appreciate that sexual energy.

Craig Perra:
The way that I like to teach part of the concept… Because I don’t know if there’s one right… This is what mindful masturbation is for me and that means what it is for you. But some of the guidelines that I like to teach is that… Like mindful breathing. When you’re practicing mindful breathing, you’re focused. The center of that experience is the breath. When you’re practicing mindful masturbation, the center of that experience is the pleasure. Is the feeling. What happens is when you connect with that feeling and that pleasure, the mind, because we’ve conditioned it and trained it over decades in many cases, automatically, instantaneously jumps to the visual. It’s kind of like our relationship with our thoughts. When your mind jumps to the visual, gently bring it back to the pleasure. When it jumps to the visual, bring it back to the pleasure. When it jumps to the visual, bring it back to the pleasure. It’s a very frustrating experience. I want to put out there. Anybody who’s contemplating doing this, please heed Adrian’s warning. Make sure you’re in a good place. The goal is to create a healthy relationship with masturbation because everyone has a sexual optimum and that sexual optimum is who you are. That means everyone has a certain amount where they need to release. Everybody’s different. Not everybody’s in a relationship. I think it’s an important concept for a lot of people. Don’t you, Adrian?

Adrian:
Right. I think so. First of all, because, like I mentioned, sometimes we are not emotionally ready for a variety of reasons. Grieving, lost relationships, a lot of fear, for example. Sometimes we are not emotionally ready to start a new relationship or to be intimate with somebody. I think in that time, also, it’s better to explore your sexuality than to run away from it and then watch porn when you go totally go out of control. I think that’s important. How’s that different from porn also? I think that’s important to mention.

Craig Perra:
Please.

Adrian:
It’s different because the chemicals that you release in your brain, the amount of excitement, basically, that porn creates in our minds, is much higher usually than the amount of excitement that we naturally experience during sex and also during mindful masturbation. It’s much, I would say, more natural thing to experience where porn is like an enhanced experience. You have all those close ups. Women in full makeup. All this fake reality that creates excitement that can’t be really replaced in real life. It can’t be experienced in real life. That’s why it’s so addictive. Mindful masturbation isn’t. Like you said, sometimes it’s frustrating because it’s not as exciting as porn and you try to go to those fantasies. That’s when you have to catch yourself and maybe stop altogether. Just for your safety. For the sake of not going to that porn website or to that fantasy at the moment.

Adrian:
But I think it is an important concept also for guys who are in relationships. I’m not speaking about the situation when you choose to masturbate because you don’t want to connect with your partner. That has to change. That is a no brainer for me. But sometimes guy want to have sex every second. We talked about that on the sexual optimal episode. See the link in the description. Sometimes guys want to have sex every second and the partner wants to have sex once a week or once every second week. That discrepancy creates tensions in a couple. Sometimes one partner feels manipulated or pushed to have sex. It’s not a healthy situation. So, mindful masturbation can help us avoid that situation. You can be even present with your partner when you’re mindfully masturbating. It doesn’t have to be an act that is done in hiding. I think that can be a part of sexuality in a couple as well. It doesn’t have to be an activity where you steal energy away from your partner. It can be part of connecting with your partner, actually. So, that’s my observation on that. I recommend that even for people who are noticing a discrepancy in the couple.

Craig Perra:
Yeah, it helps couples manage that mismatched libido. This concept is so important and so powerful, I think, because a lot of people, as I mentioned earlier, come to us where it’s everything is bad. Porn is bad. Masturbation is bad. Orgasm is bad. Introducing this concept, I think, can be a really powerful transformation and transmutation. You’re rewiring the programming around the part of yourself that has been abused, sullied, just disrespected, and this can help change that. What are some of the cons? What are some of the risks of this approach, Adrian?

Adrian:
There are a couple of risks. One risk is related to our ability to self, I would say… to lie to ourselves in simple words. Sometimes we tell ourselves, oh, it’s fine. I feel okay. Or I don’t know if my partner wants to have sex today, so I will just masturbate. We just [inaudible 00:18:13] reasons why we should do it when it’s not a healthy situation. Or we could wait two hours and we would have an amazing time with our partner. I think that is a really important thing. You have to be really honest with yourself and be able to cut through the illusions and really be in touch with your feelings and with your body. That requires some practice. That requires time and healing in recovery. So, that’s the con. That we can really try to lie to ourselves to have more of that mindful masturbation.

Adrian:
Second con, I think is that it can really go out of hand if you’re not careful. If you are masturbating and you notice that you go those fantasies constantly and then you start to maybe watch something on the screen and then it goes downhill from there. That’s a risk as well. When you’re not really controlling yourself, you don’t feel that you can be present with that energy. I would say it’s better to be safe than sorry and to stop when you notice that you are going to this fantasy realm again. So, that’s the risk as well. And risk of disconnecting in general. We have this tendency to numb and escape, so we have to be really careful whether we are doing this masturbation act to connect to our body and to experience pleasure and to love and respect our body or whether we are doing that to numb and escape something. Again, it requires a lot of mindfulness. Of awareness.

Craig Perra:
And honesty. This is not something… I want to be 100% crystal clear. This is something that you share with your partner. Another con or another risk is that… It’s really related… I’m just expanding upon what you said, Adrian, which is where our ability to lie to ourselves is pretty impressive. I mean, it is a part of being human. We can convince ourselves of just about anything. So, if you find yourself using this technique to justify unhealthy sexual behaviors, to justify lying to your partner about your sexual expression, if you’re using this technique in place of connecting with your partner, then I don’t think you can answer this question in the affirmative, which always should be when you talk about sexual expression is, is this healthy? If the answer is no, step back, step out of it, and maybe you’re not ready for it.

Adrian:
Right, and the question is then alternatives to that. Because when guys are in relationships, the alternative is obviously to have sex with a partner. Sometimes. Not always. Because sometimes couples are in a really rough place and it’s not possible, but sometimes it’s to have sex with a partner. And that’s great. You have an alternative. You have an outlet for your sexuality. Awesome. But what about all the other guys, I’m wondering, Craig. What could you say to all the other guys who are either single and not ready to have healthy masturbation or in relationship but there is no… for the moment, there is no space to have sexual intimacy with their partner? What they can do with that sexual energy that’s building up in then.

Craig Perra:
Exercise. Take care of themselves. And I might recommend this technique maybe a little earlier than others in that I… Here’s how this works. I introduce this concept of mindful masturbation and I introduce it pretty early because I believe that, for the overwhelming majority of our clients, creating a healthy relationship with this part of their lives is critical on their path to healthy sexuality. So, I will introduce this concept, give them an assignment to contemplate it, to try to masturbate mindfully, meaning this pleasure-centric experience, and here’s what happens just about all the time. In fact, there’s a warning label now that I give with this exercise, which is this may sound easy. I don’t know what it sounds like to you. I don’t know what this sounds like to you, but I need to tell you that there is a very high chance that you are going to be incredibly frustrated. That you are going to be flashing to fantasy or when you’re… without the fantasy, without the visual, you can’t even perform. You’re limp.

Craig Perra:
What happens is the assignment of mindful masturbation, which I do think a lot of guys like… I got this. How hard can this be? And then they start and it’s, wow. Wow, wow, wow. What it does… It has the benefit, by introducing it early, of highlighting just how broken their sexual selves have become. Because there was a point in their lives, when they were children, where they were able to masturbate without pornography. That’s something that they, as a man, were able to do. And, now, they can’t even get it up. They’re flaccid and semi-flaccid. It’s a really, really difficult concept, so I like pushing that envelope a little earlier to highlight that and then help them progress towards healthy in that part of themselves. But if they’re not masturbating, exercise. Practicing mindfulness, meditating. Those two things are critical if you want to manage this powerful biological force inside us. What do you think?

Adrian:
Well, yeah, I think meditation, especially if you go deeply into meditative states, is really helpful. Because you experience a sense of bliss if you’re really deeply meditating. I think that sense of bliss… It releases certain hormones, like serotonin, in your brain that are lowering the libido, actually. The more serotonin you have, the less, actually, sexually active you want to be. That’s why, on antidepressants, people have lower libido. Because they have higher serotonin, higher prolactin levels in their brain. So, that happens also when you are really deeply meditating. It takes time to get there, but you can experience really pleasurable feelings and happiness and joy and, at the same time, your sexual drive is really calming down a little bit. So, it’s easier to handle. For me, that helped a lot during my process of working on my sexuality.

Adrian:
But I would say a concept of sexual transmutation is very important here. How we can… If we treat sexuality as an energy, how we can express that energy. How we can change that energy into something else. Is it even possible? There are certain spiritual techniques that we can focus on in order to transform that energy. I was doing… I did this bowing technique. We did it in California together, right?

Craig Perra:
Yes, yes.

Adrian:
Bowing yoga technique that I’ve learned in the zen monastery, actually. I was doing a lot of that during my celibacy period. It was 90 days. It was really, really hard. That exercise… It was physical, but also spiritual, which really helped me to transmute that energy. Also, the second one that I was doing was imagining that this energy coming from my genital area, this sexual energy, goes up when I’m breathing in, into my heart, and it changes into love energy. It sounds a little bit… maybe hippie-like or a little bit spiritual, but this is who I am and that was really, really helpful for me to feel something different. To not just see people with the lust glasses. I was seeing them with the eyes of love. I was seeing humans in them after this exercise very often. It was a really helpful spiritual activity. So, stuff like that helped me. Exercising, for sure. And also this… I remember back then when we were starting the work together, you mentioned Napoleon Hill. He said something about this. Can you speak about that a little bit?

Craig Perra:
Who is that now?

Adrian:
Napoleon Hill.

Craig Perra:
Oh, Napoleon Hill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Napoleon Hill… I’ve been in business most of my adult life. An attorney, an executive, worked for big companies. Everyone has read, often multiple times, this Think and Grow Rich book by Napoleon Hill. It’s one of the first self-help books ever written, but it seems that I skipped one chapter every single time I was assigned that book and that chapter… For all of you listening, the book is in the public domain. You can find it online. Chapter 11. Chapter 11 is a book on a sexual transmutation. Basically, Napoleon Hill’s point is that… and I’m going to editorialize and improvise, summarize, and update. The heart of his point was our sexual energy in us is a powerful force. It has driven men to build dynasties and skyscrapers and conquer lands. It has also ruined dynasties and ruined men and destroyed them. Essentially, at the heart of sexual transmutation is that this powerful part of us, this powerful energy, needs to be directed, needs to be channeled, into creating a good life. In that, having a partner that you love spending time with and you enjoy connecting sexually with. Living a life where your purpose infects just about everything you do. This part of you is glowing. It’s a source of strength. It’s a source of power. It’s a source of creativity.

Craig Perra:
It’s a fascinating chapter. I discovered this concept of sexual transmutation at my lowest point. It was literally… I had just been fired. Just got out of a three-day inpatient stay, danger to myself. I wasn’t a danger to anyone else. I was a danger to myself. I was in there for three days. I came out. My sexual energy had destroyed me, ruined my life, brought me to near suicide, and I read this chapter. What was so telling about this chapter, Adrian, was it was on the… So, I’m getting out. I’m getting out. I’m like, man, I have to go to meetings again. I have to treat my addiction. It was depressing because I had already been down that road like five times previously in my life.

Craig Perra:
And then I saw… It was the first time in my life I felt that I had read someone talking about this part of myself not being a source of shame and disgust and something that I needed to keep into this box, this Pandora’s box, for fear of letting it out, the whole… everything would be ruined. It was the first time that I had seen or heard someone writing about sex being powerful. In fact, it’s a chapter that I assign every one of my clients. I want them to read this dated, a little misogynistic… It’s a little old-fashioned. It’s a little old-fashioned, but if you can look past that and capture the heart of it, that our sexual energy is powerful and that power needs to be transmuted.

Adrian:
I think that was an amazing concept for me as well. I imagined my sexual energy, after reading that, as a river. That’s just flowing through my body. I can either learn how to direct that river or where to direct that river of energy or I can just build a dam. And then the dam will break at some point.

Craig Perra:
It’ll break.

Adrian:
It always breaks. So, I directed that energy to creative efforts as well, to build my relationship, and also towards spirituality. I was using all those exercises in order to elevate other areas of my life, where sexual intimacy became like a cherry on top of the cake and, before, it was the whole cake. That was the only thing I was thinking about in relationships. So, definitely sexual transmutation can help us get a different perspective on sex and where it should be in our lives and how to use that energy. I’m just wondering, Craig, as we’re talking, how to handle mindful sexuality in a relationship? You are in a relationship. I am in a relationship long-term also. Sometimes I think sex in relationship is mindful and sometimes it isn’t. How are you handling that? How are you telling… When do you say to yourself it’s okay to have sex? How do you handle that?

Craig Perra:
Well, I think it’s important to know your sexual optimum. It’s important to know your partner’s sexual optimum. And mindfulness is… just to unpack that definition for a second… being in the present moment. Being present. Being here. Not pretending you’re someplace else. Not eyes closed, head buried in the pillow, fantasizing about the porn scene that you had or the other sexual experience that you had. Being in the present moment, on purpose, without judgment. Even a… I say even, but all sex with your partner should… I recommend to have a goal of being present. Even the… and I’m saying even because what I hear sometimes is, “Well, but sometimes you get that urge. You just want to get in there.” There’s that animalistic, primal drive. Even a better example to be present. Why would you not be present with that? Be with it. Go with that. Channel that energy and direct it.

Craig Perra:
I think every time you connect with your partner presents an opportunity to be mindful. Because there is so much programming. Intimacy is so hard, Adrian. Me directing that sexual energy to the person I also love, for a long time, that does not compute. I was unable to do that and so I stuffed it down and then sent it someplace else. So, learning how to be present with that energy, not to be ashamed of that energy, to be able to talk about it openly and honestly and share that in an intimate way, and a fun way, with Michelle has been one of my greatest joys.

Adrian:
Right. I’m thinking about that because I realized after my celibacy period that now I have to reintroduce myself to sex life. It was also really scary just to come back to expressing my sexuality with a partner. Over that time, I realized that sometimes I am connected with myself. I am connected with my partner. There’s this sense of love, of warmth, of respect, mutual respect, and we have great experience together. And sometimes I’m disconnected or I feel frustrated and I choose to have sex with my partner in order to numb and escape. I realized that even having sex with your partner can be a compulsive sexual behavior. It can be similar to watching porn or masturbating to some picture or to… I don’t know. Maybe going and hooking up with an escort.

Adrian:
So, I realized that and it took me some time just to see what are the situations when I don’t really feel connected, when I don’t really feel ready to open up emotionally with my partner while I’m being sexual, and to just step back in those moments and say, okay, let’s wait until tomorrow when I feel better. It’s not the right time. It took a lot of guts to say that as well. I felt like guys should always perform. Guys should always crave sex. If your partner wants it, then you should want it as well. All those patterns of thinking were there. It was really hard for me to say, but it was really important to recognize and respect that energy. That right now I am not ready. I’m feeling emotionally disconnected, closed. It’s not a good time.

Adrian:
Over time, I realized… It became easier for me to just notice those moments and be mindful. To not go to fantasies. To not close my eyes all the time and think about porn scenes. Or just to be present, to appreciate the moment, and to connect physically, mentally, spiritually with this person that I’m with. With my partner. So, that’s an important area to look at also for you guys who are listening. Look how you are experiencing sexuality with your partner if you have a partner and you’re having sex. Because it may not also be connected. It may not be loving. It may not be respectful. All those things have to be there if you want to really heal your sexuality.

Craig Perra:
One great way to find out is to ask. Do you feel I was present? Do you feel that she was present? I like to say, Adrian, that… Well, first, anyone listening to this podcast has heard me say it a thousand times. The behavior is the symptom. I’ve never treated anybody who’s primarily had a sex problem. A porn problem. So, okay. All that’s true and… I treat intimacy disorders. What you talked about… men always feeling like they have to perform, not being able to say no, the pressures that society put on us for that penis to be rock hard. And then I’m working with some men as they get older and they’re flaccid and the medication isn’t working and their lives are dead.

Craig Perra:
No! There’s lots of other things that you can do. With the goal being healthy. Is this healthy? Is this bringing joy to your life? It doesn’t mean it’s not going to bring an awful lot of tension and stress and anxiety in the beginning, but that’s the hill that we’re looking to climb so your sexual expression becomes a source of joy and pleasure in your life. There are so many opportunities that we as men have to heal that intimacy disorder. To learn how to express ourselves in a healthy, constructive way. Because so much of that part of ourselves was trained in darkness, isolation, and shame. Coming to us at this rock bottom place is an opportunity to heal in a really powerful way.

Adrian:
Right, right. I totally agree.

Craig Perra:
So, guys. Mindful masturbation. Mindful sexuality. Healthy sexuality. Mindfulness. Being in the present moment, on purpose, without judgment. Before we wrap up, Adrian, I’m going to give everyone a way to contact you, but in closing, is there anything else you’d like to say before we wrap up this podcast?

Adrian:
One thing I’m thinking about for guys who are a little bit more spiritual or open for that stuff, if you want to experience this period of… let’s say, for some time, you want to experience celibacy because you don’t want to have sex or you’re afraid of that or for whatever reason… try to look up tantric practices. They are focused on really transmuting that sexual energy into spiritual energy. It’s a very old, I would say, Eastern tradition. If you don’t have any reservations against that, you want to learn a little bit about how to use that energy in a different way, try that. It helped me really to stay celibate for over three months and that gave me perspective on my sexuality. So, for those of you who are really rock solid on I’m not going to masturbate, look at the other options. Check it out. That’s one last thing I wanted to say.

Craig Perra:
And please, if you heard something on this call that sparked your interest and you’re interested in working with Adrian… Obviously, I highly recommend it. Testimonial after testimonial calls his work life-changing. He’s been there. He’s had his own problems. Now, with a master’s in clinical psychology. In pursuit, almost done with his advanced sexual certification. Please, reach out to Adrian and I’m going to give you a number. Get a pen ready because I’m going to give you the number. This will get you directly… You can leave him a message. Make sure you leave your email address when you leave him a message. Just because he’s in another country and I want to make sure he can get back to you. There’s two ways to get in touch with Adrian. Way number one, call. 1-800-214-5249. That’s 1-800-214-5249. Or email him. Adrian@themindfulhabit.com. He’s taking on a limited number of one-on-one clients and then a fewer less of what we can accountability clients, which is another program that he can share with you. Adrian, thank you so much for being here, brother.

Adrian:
Thank you very much. Thanks for a great conversation.

Craig Perra:
And for you guys out there listening, thank yo so much for giving us… sharing with me your most precious resource, time. Your sexual energy… Well, listen. If you’re listening to us, then you already appreciate its disruptive capability of your sexual energy. You can appreciate this part of you has been addictive. This part of you is out of control. So, as destructive as that force can be, it has another side. It has another side and that’s what mindfulness and transmutation and some of these concepts that we’ve talked about can help you bring is the constructive value of this powerful evolutionary energy that sits in us men. It can be channeled and directed into creating a great life. Thank you for joining us to help you create a great life. Bye, everybody!

Adrian:
Thank you.